acejack
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Dec 26, 2012 15:12:51 GMT -5
Post by acejack on Dec 26, 2012 15:12:51 GMT -5
Anyone turned on CNN lately? It's brilliant. Every night it's Piers Morgan shouting at Second Amendment supporters for an hour, then Anderson Cooper spends his show interviewing the parents of dead children. The whole time at the bottom there's these little plums coming in on Twitter, stuff like: "I was a lifetime NRA member, but today I tore up my card and destroyed all of my guns. I could have sold them, but I'd hate to think they could eventually end up in the wrong hands." and "For years I defended the Second Amendment, but actions like what happened at Sandy Hook make me think it's time to re-open the discussion." Piers Morgan is a certified, 24 carrot asshole. As I recall, he got his pee-pee well & truly tied in a knot during the Daily Mirror (a trashy Brit tabloid) phone hacking scandal. * So it's a known thing that rights - anybody's rights (except his own, of course) are meaningless to him. With all due respect to the victims, there's one question that's been lost in all the wailing & gnashing of all the talking heads squawking their shrill agendas: Where is the discussion of the mother's responsibility for this mess? She took a couple of slugs to the head, so immediately she became a blameless victim in the context of the media's agenda, but...She had spoken with neighbors and interacted with the school administration on the topic of her kid being at least a half a bubble off. She had tried to keep her private life - including that of her kid - private, which is understandable to a great degree, but it was utterly no secret to the community at large that her kid was suffering from Asperger’s Syndrome *, such that his mental condition was known to be an ongoing issue. She was a well-to-do divorcee, receiving nearly $300k per year in alimony - she didn't fit the stereotypical picture of a struggling single mother. She could afford both home schooling for the kid and a pretty nice arsenal of boom sticks. There's video of her at a local shooting range. Okay, so the question(s) becomes: 1.) At the very least, she knew the kid wasn't right. 2.) She had a collection of potentially very deadly weapons in the house and enough ammo on hand to keep the Zombies at bay when the Walking Dead migrated to Connecticut. 3.) Given the above, what measures had she taken - or not taken - to assure both herself and the rest of the world at-large that her kid couldn't get his whacked-out mitts on them when the Emperor Palpatine voices in the kid's head told Darth Lanza to go pop a couple of caps on mom and then do the bunny hop down to his Alma Mater & wipe out the Younglings? The point is that the issue of personal responsibility is the first concept that went out the window mere nanoseconds after the media latched on to this story & dug in like an Alabama Tick. Did the mother have a gun safe? If not, why didn't she peel off a little of that $300k's worth of yearly cabbage, get one and make damn sure that her wobbly-headed little darling didn't have access to the arsenal. If she couldn't afford one, she had no business keeping weapons in the house that she knew the kid could get access to. Period. I guess that makes too much sense. As has been pointed out millions of times elsewhere, a gun is an inanimate object. Left to its own devices, you can put one on a table and it will sit there and easily stare down the cat. It will sit there for a million years. Until someone picks it up, chambers a round and pulls the trigger. It will sit there until hell freezes over. When the trigger is pulled, it is only performing a function, dictated by the person pulling the trigger. The gun is amoral; it doesn't care. So the key to the situation is the person pulling the trigger - and by extension - the person(s) that screwed the pooch by not securing access to the weapons sufficiently to insure that a person with known mental issues could get at them. Period. So Mom, I'm truly sorry you had to learn that lesson the hard way. But you committed suicide once-removed. And what's worse, your lack of oversight got 25 other people killed. Perhaps for your sake, you had a bit of tragic luck - I surely wouldn't want to have to live with the realization that by omission, I was responsible for that particularly gruesome form of carnage. What's more, the media that now merely lumps you in on a list of tragic victims would have turned on you like the crowd at a Roman Coliseum, turning thumbs down (up, actually in true history, but the point is moot), screaming in all its fury for your head because the media needs a scapegoat and honey, you fit the bill if there ever was one. So maybe you lucked out and your kid did you a twisted sort of favor. Maybe he even knew that and did it on purpose - we'll never know. The tragic lesson that's being lost in all the media-fueled furor is the simple concept of personal responsibility. There is no such thing as an "accident." There is only cause and effect. Any event, good or bad, is only the culmination of a series of causes. Somebody didn't secure access to a collection of deadly weapons. Somebody, whose mental processes were tenuous at best, got access to those weapons and a tragedy ensued. Cause. Effect. We're all responsible for what we do. Good or bad. Freedom isn't free; it comes with a price. The freedom to own weapons comes with the responsibility to safeguard their use. In this case, that chain of responsibility was broken with tragic consequences. But the guns didn't do it. They were no more responsible than the axe or the knife or the IED the kid would have used if he hadn't had easy access to a more efficient tool. Mom screwed up. Mom, and 25 other people paid the price. That's the tragically simple lesson to be learned from this event. And it's going right over people's heads. * - www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/23/piers-morgan-hacking-jeremy-paxman-leveson_n_1539798.html * - www.autism-society.org/about-autism/aspergers-syndrome/ Piers Morgan would have started shouting over you at: "With all due respect..."
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acejack
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Dec 26, 2012 15:27:18 GMT -5
Post by acejack on Dec 26, 2012 15:27:18 GMT -5
A nuclear bomb is also an inanimate object. Not a good idea for every household to have one. Really, nuclear bombs? Couldn't have said hand grenades or sticks of dynamite? How about a propane tank from your local drug store? We've got a CVS or Walgreens on every other corner. It seems like I could buy two from each and run out of room in my truck before I got 5 miles from home. Not to give Maijai any ideas, but it seems like that has a lot more destructive capability to your local maternity wing than an "assault rifle". Then I remember, this is just theater for the masses. The true machinations are far more frightening, I'm sure.
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bobbymo
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Dec 26, 2012 15:44:13 GMT -5
Post by bobbymo on Dec 26, 2012 15:44:13 GMT -5
The Bill of Rights exists to protect the rights of the minority from the tyranny of the majority. That cannot be understated.
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G&T
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Dec 26, 2012 16:20:37 GMT -5
Post by G&T on Dec 26, 2012 16:20:37 GMT -5
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flats
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Post by flats on Dec 26, 2012 17:07:48 GMT -5
A nuclear bomb is also an inanimate object. Not a good idea for every household to have one. Quite true. But I addressed that issue - if the mother couldn't secure access to the guns, she had no business having them. Well the mother could have. She just didn't. I hardly think she's alone in that regard.
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pterosaur
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Dec 26, 2012 17:29:02 GMT -5
Post by pterosaur on Dec 26, 2012 17:29:02 GMT -5
Ah, yes... Another fine example of the kind of idiocy that gets 90 year old grandmothers and kids in wheelchairs groped by the TSA while guys named Osama get a free pass for fear of being accused of "profiling."
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pterosaur
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Dec 26, 2012 17:49:26 GMT -5
Post by pterosaur on Dec 26, 2012 17:49:26 GMT -5
Quite true. But I addressed that issue - if the mother couldn't secure access to the guns, she had no business having them. Well the mother could have. She just didn't. I hardly think she's alone in that regard. I'm sure you have a point there somewhere, but I just don't have a microscope handy to be able to spot it. Whether or not she was "alone in that regard" isn't the point. That "She just didn't..." is. The buck's gotta stop somewhere. Did you leave her guns unsecured? Did I? Are we supposed to pay the price - by giving up our rights - because she "...just didn't..."? That's bullshit. And a cop-out. She "...just didn't." And she got herself and 25 other people killed for it. She, more than anyone, knew the potential danger of mixing that kid with access to firearms. She "...just didn't." It's on her, man. Not you, not me, her. If you leave your guns unsecured and your kid kills someone, its on you. Likewise with me or anyone else. But don't make me take the rap for her sin of omission. I got enough sins of my own to pay for without carrying her load. eta: spelling & grammar
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chip
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Dec 26, 2012 17:55:13 GMT -5
Post by chip on Dec 26, 2012 17:55:13 GMT -5
heh Can't get my pic to post from my iPhone. Never mind.
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flats
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Post by flats on Dec 26, 2012 18:07:27 GMT -5
Well you can say it falls on the irresponsible gun owner, but they aren't the ones who pay the price for their actions. It fell on 26 random people and their families.
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flats
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Post by flats on Dec 26, 2012 18:10:24 GMT -5
Ace, dynamite and rhino tanks have other legitimate uses, and so aren't valid comparisons. The grenades you mention certainly would be, and with them my position is the same as firearms - no civilian needs one.
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Voodoochile
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Dec 26, 2012 18:30:27 GMT -5
Post by Voodoochile on Dec 26, 2012 18:30:27 GMT -5
Well you can say it falls on the irresponsible gun owner, but they aren't the ones who pay the price for their actions. It fell on 26 random people and their families. Pretty sure taking however many rounds in the face she took was paying the price.
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Voodoochile
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Dec 26, 2012 18:35:46 GMT -5
Post by Voodoochile on Dec 26, 2012 18:35:46 GMT -5
Ace, dynamite and rhino tanks have other legitimate uses, and so aren't valid comparisons. The grenades you mention certainly would be, and with them my position is the same as firearms - no civilian needs one. You are in the wrong country. Our founding fathers believed in our God given right to protect ourselves. Firearms are part of that protection whether from crack addicts, rabid squirrels or tyranny.
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pterosaur
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Dec 26, 2012 18:41:01 GMT -5
Post by pterosaur on Dec 26, 2012 18:41:01 GMT -5
Well you can say it falls on the irresponsible gun owner, but they aren't the ones who pay the price for their actions. It fell on 26 random people and their families. Which neatly exposes the flaw in your thinking: No, it fell on one specific person - the irresponsible gun owner - and 25 random people. Which, as I said before, is a twisted sort of luck for her - because if she had survived by some quirk of bad - or good - luck, take your pick, %90 of media fury and public frenzy would have fallen squarely on her. The media, the legal industry and righteous indignation of the anti-gun public all require a scapegoat. Had she lived, she would have been right in their sights; she would have been charged with 25 counts of manslaughter and convicted with a +/- 10 year rap in the hoosegau to satisfy the wont of an outraged society. The woman would never have lived a normal day for the rest of her natural life, hounded pillar to post by the righteous indignation of a holier-than-thou society (a good number of those fitting the description of the "...she's hardly alone..." crowd you mentioned earlier. And on top of all that, she would have had to live with that knowledge internally for the rest of her life - that while she was "...hardly alone..." that wasn't the point; it was her, singular mistake, regardless of how many others have repeatedly made the same mistake, that led to that particular tragedy. Odds are that at her earliest opportunity, she'd have capped herself, or likewise done herself in by whatever mechanism was available to her - pills, the nearest bridge, Carbon monoxide, a freight train... there's no shortage of mechanisms. And who could blame her? As it turned out, she didn't survive, so the entire requirement for a handy scapegoat falls squarely upon the gun ownership issue, which might be the biggest straw man since Joesph Stalin was referred to as "Uncle Joe" by the American media early in WWII, but that's a topic for a different thread.
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acejack
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Dec 26, 2012 18:58:10 GMT -5
Post by acejack on Dec 26, 2012 18:58:10 GMT -5
Ace, dynamite and rhino tanks have other legitimate uses, and so aren't valid comparisons. The grenades you mention certainly would be, and with them my position is the same as firearms - no civilian needs one. A knife could be used to clean one's fingernails as easily as it could slit someone's throat. A propane tank could cook your steaks or could cook a room full of people. A gun could shoot a criminal or a child. Did you ever watch that show "1000 Ways To Die"? Me neither. The point is, I could list three dozen things in my office that I could kill someone with. What should we legislate next, a Crown Royal bag full of casino chips or a bottle of Romulan Ale?
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bobbymo
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Dec 26, 2012 22:25:46 GMT -5
Post by bobbymo on Dec 26, 2012 22:25:46 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the anti-gun crowd would rather focus on keeping deranged killers from having guns than keeping people from becoming deranged killers. Once the focus is shifted to the latter, we'll start seeing real progress.
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flats
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Post by flats on Dec 26, 2012 23:55:23 GMT -5
No one knows what the heck they meant because they phrased it so damn poorly. The second amendment should be repealed for grammatical issues alone.
I agree it expresses something about us having the right to self defense. But there's nothing to imply firearms are protected by the amendment. "Arms" could mean spears.
If it does mean "guns" there's still a ton of leeway. Laws forbidding anything but a single barrel shotgun, manufactured and sold only by the US government, requiring purchasers to obtain the equivalent of a class 3 license, with a one weapon per household limit, and restrictions against ever taking the weapon off your own property would be entirely constitutional. I think that would be a reasonable compromise, for now, until firearms can be entirely outlawed in a few generations when the culture has sufficiently matured.
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acejack
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Dec 27, 2012 0:23:07 GMT -5
Post by acejack on Dec 27, 2012 0:23:07 GMT -5
A single barrel shotgun like this one?
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acejack
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Dec 27, 2012 3:13:02 GMT -5
Post by acejack on Dec 27, 2012 3:13:02 GMT -5
Also, why do we lose our shotguns when we're culturally mature? That's like saying when we finally stop drunk driving you're taking away our car. What do we get instead of the shotguns, phasers or lightsabers? I don't like any of this, it's like the OBR in real life.
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Diz
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Dec 27, 2012 9:08:16 GMT -5
Post by Diz on Dec 27, 2012 9:08:16 GMT -5
I think people like Ace shouldn't be allowed to have guns. See above reasonings.
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flats
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Dec 27, 2012 9:29:45 GMT -5
Post by flats on Dec 27, 2012 9:29:45 GMT -5
Also, why do we lose our shotguns when we're culturally mature? Because then we'll be smart enough to understand the cost/benefit ratio of owning firearms and willingly scrap them.
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Voodoochile
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Dec 27, 2012 9:30:24 GMT -5
Post by Voodoochile on Dec 27, 2012 9:30:24 GMT -5
No one knows what the heck they meant because they phrased it so damn poorly. The second amendment should be repealed for grammatical issues alone. I agree it expresses something about us having the right to self defense. But there's nothing to imply firearms are protected by the amendment. "Arms" could mean spears. If it does mean "guns" there's still a ton of leeway. Laws forbidding anything but a single barrel shotgun, manufactured and sold only by the US government, requiring purchasers to obtain the equivalent of a class 3 license, with a one weapon per household limit, and restrictions against ever taking the weapon off your own property would be entirely constitutional. I think that would be a reasonable compromise, for now, until firearms can be entirely outlawed in a few generations when the culture has sufficiently matured. This is so completely against why this country was founded. Why do we want to go back to living under a government that controls everything we can and cannot have when so many spilled their blood to escape such tyranny?
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flats
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Dec 27, 2012 9:30:31 GMT -5
Post by flats on Dec 27, 2012 9:30:31 GMT -5
A single barrel shotgun like this one? No. No semi or fully automatic weapons.
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Voodoochile
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Dec 27, 2012 9:31:39 GMT -5
Post by Voodoochile on Dec 27, 2012 9:31:39 GMT -5
A single barrel shotgun like this one? No. No semi or fully automatic weapons. Can I keep my pointy sticks?
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flats
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Dec 27, 2012 9:33:41 GMT -5
Post by flats on Dec 27, 2012 9:33:41 GMT -5
No one knows what the heck they meant because they phrased it so damn poorly. The second amendment should be repealed for grammatical issues alone. I agree it expresses something about us having the right to self defense. But there's nothing to imply firearms are protected by the amendment. "Arms" could mean spears. If it does mean "guns" there's still a ton of leeway. Laws forbidding anything but a single barrel shotgun, manufactured and sold only by the US government, requiring purchasers to obtain the equivalent of a class 3 license, with a one weapon per household limit, and restrictions against ever taking the weapon off your own property would be entirely constitutional. I think that would be a reasonable compromise, for now, until firearms can be entirely outlawed in a few generations when the culture has sufficiently matured. This is so completely against why this country was founded. Why do we want to go back to living under a government that controls everything we can and cannot have when so many spilled their blood to escape such tyranny? Why do you want to live under a police state with SWAT teams constantly monitoring every elementary school and movie theater?
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Voodoochile
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Dec 27, 2012 9:35:03 GMT -5
Post by Voodoochile on Dec 27, 2012 9:35:03 GMT -5
I don't
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