Sigflanagan6
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Post by Sigflanagan6 on Jul 30, 2013 10:12:19 GMT -5
That's just it tommy, you call them excuses, they aren't. There are so many contributing factors to why attendance has gone down. We were spoiled in the nineties with 4,5 legitimate stars who also had personality. Kipnis could be the next star and he has personality, but outside of him for the last ten years they've had nothing but robotic average players void of any personality.
I think what you and others miss is you're making this argument as it relates to die hard fans. That's not the issue. Those fans are attending, but as you've pointed out this isn't a baseball town. The reason attendance was great before is the casual fan was motivated to attend. The Indians aren't motivating the casual fan to go, thus attendance is down.
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TommyDee
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Post by TommyDee on Jul 30, 2013 10:30:06 GMT -5
The reason the casual fan was going Sig was it was the perfect storm that will never come back. I can't blame the Dolans for that. Dick Jacobs was a genius. He saw that things were about to peak and he got out.
It's not a new stadium. The economy is bad. And it's not the thing to do. Listen to Cleveland sports talk - most fans want to talk about the Browns. In July. While the Indians are winning. In the 90s the talk was all about the Indians. It was new. It was fresh. They hadn't won anything in 40 years. Everyone wanted to be apart of that - young, old, nuns, anyone. Now all people want to do is compare this team to what they had then. You can say it was the players if you want but you as a knowledgeable sports fan know there was no way to keep guys like CC & Lee around. Impossible. Now, you want to bitch about the return? I'm with you.
They market just like every other team does. I still don't know what else you want them to do in that department. They are winning like many other teams aren't. And they are averaging less than 20,000 fans.
I'm not bitching about that. I'm just telling you that's the way it is in a non baseball town. This is the norm in Cleveland not what you saw in the 90s.
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Post by TommyDee on Jul 30, 2013 10:41:24 GMT -5
I would also listen to the argument that the city of Cleveland is so poorly run and that less people live downtown than ever as being a reason for the poor attendance. That without a doubt hurts. But that could just be tied to the poor economy side of the perfect storm.
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Sigflanagan6
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Post by Sigflanagan6 on Jul 30, 2013 11:25:28 GMT -5
So every other team runs a two year long marketing campaign that focuses on success in the nineties and not the current team?
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TommyDee
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Post by TommyDee on Jul 30, 2013 12:05:55 GMT -5
So every other team runs a two year long marketing campaign that focuses on success in the nineties and not the current team? cleveland.indians.mlb.com/schedule/promotions.jsp?c_id=cleI see a Swisher jersey day, a Bourn jersey day, a Kipnis jersey day, a Brantley jersey day, & a new block C hat. I guess you are referring to the bobbleheads but I know I'd prefer get one of those old ones.
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Sigflanagan6
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Post by Sigflanagan6 on Jul 30, 2013 12:16:19 GMT -5
So every other team runs a two year long marketing campaign that focuses on success in the nineties and not the current team? cleveland.indians.mlb.com/schedule/promotions.jsp?c_id=cleI see a Swisher jersey day, a Bourn jersey day, a Kipnis jersey day, a Brantley jersey day, & a new block C hat. I guess you are referring to the bobbleheads but I know I'd prefer get one of those old ones. No. I'm referring to the "what if" advertisements that the team ran the last two years. Again, I understand the reasoning behind the moves they've made, but I'm more than a casual fan. The average casual fan that doesn't understand it, like my dad, are the fans the Indians aren't reaching. Second to last in attendance. You telling me the other 28 teams are baseball towns? This organization since Dolan has taken over has done a miserable job with the fans. You're right they won't sell out continually, but no way in hell should they be second to last in attendance. That's on the team. Plain and simple.
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Post by TommyDee on Jul 30, 2013 12:37:46 GMT -5
No. I'm referring to the "what if" advertisements that the team ran the last two years. Again, I understand the reasoning behind the moves they've made, but I'm more than a casual fan. The average casual fan that doesn't understand it, like my dad, are the fans the Indians aren't reaching. Second to last in attendance. You telling me the other 28 teams are baseball towns? This organization since Dolan has taken over has done a miserable job with the fans. You're right they won't sell out continually, but no way in hell should they be second to last in attendance. That's on the team. Plain and simple. And your Dad still loves the Browns even though they have been poorly run, have had a bad stadium experience and have been piss poor. Because he likes football more. Meanwhile the Indians do IMO put on a good show at their park, do have good promotions, do have good concessions and are winning. Maybe there are a lot of people who just turned them off because of Dolan, but like I said I see it as more of an excuse. They don't love baseball enough to fill that stadium up again. Many fans that went in the day weren't even casual fans, it was just the hip thing to do.
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acejack
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Post by acejack on Jul 30, 2013 13:50:37 GMT -5
We should be more like the Red Sox. We should have a stadium that holds 400 people and then brag about how it's always sold out.
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Sigflanagan6
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Post by Sigflanagan6 on Jul 30, 2013 14:00:01 GMT -5
No. I'm referring to the "what if" advertisements that the team ran the last two years. Again, I understand the reasoning behind the moves they've made, but I'm more than a casual fan. The average casual fan that doesn't understand it, like my dad, are the fans the Indians aren't reaching. Second to last in attendance. You telling me the other 28 teams are baseball towns? This organization since Dolan has taken over has done a miserable job with the fans. You're right they won't sell out continually, but no way in hell should they be second to last in attendance. That's on the team. Plain and simple. And your Dad still loves the Browns even though they have been poorly run, have had a bad stadium experience and have been piss poor. Because he likes football more. Meanwhile the Indians do IMO put on a good show at their park, do have good promotions, do have good concessions and are winning. Maybe there are a lot of people who just turned them off because of Dolan, but like I said I see it as more of an excuse. They don't love baseball enough to fill that stadium up again. Many fans that went in the day weren't even casual fans, it was just the hip thing to do. So answer me this, why are 28 other teams doing better? You telling me it's the hip thing to do in KC, Milwaukee, Philly, Colorado, Houston......
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Post by TommyDee on Jul 30, 2013 14:32:00 GMT -5
26 are doing better to be exact.
KC is about the same. Houston is even worst (HORRENDOUS TEAM)
But I'm not even sure your point anymore. I say the days of that stadium getting over 30,000 are over and done with regardless of record. And you are asking me why other teams are drawing more? Without breaking down each team, most are either bigger cities, doing better economically, have a newer stadium and/or have a better baseball following.
All stuff that the Indians can't fix.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 17:08:12 GMT -5
Tommy, My passion IS the Browns, but I was also a huge Tribe fan (as were many others), UNTIL Dolan made a fatal error. 1) He took over a Franchise still building on a record number of consecutive sellouts, in a town where you couldn't have walked a block without seeing fans wearing Tribe gear. Then he cut the hell out of payroll, resulting in a sub mediocre team & stated that he would spend money when the FANS spent money. THAT's when he lost me. Spend MORE on a POS product? THAT was a total insult to we fans & our loyalty, who at that time were supporting this team better than ANY OTHER team in the Majors. He ain't gonna correct that in ONE off season & if he was that fuckin' poor, he shouldn't have BOUGHT the team in the first place. 2) This past off season, he spent money, but do we REALLY have a "game changer" of a superstar?...NO! Can this team beat the top tier teams in baseball...NO!
That's why I'm not supporting them & I'm not alone.
Bottom line is that this town & Northeast Ohio HAVE & WILL support baseball again, but it will take Dolan a lot of time to correct the damage he did. Quite frankly, I think the only way he can is to sell to a REAL owner. Cleveland is a SPORTS town, but Dolan lost the trust & support of the fans by his own treatment of us. That's not easily rectified.
Ol' "It takes time to re-gain Fan loyalty & trust." Dad
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Post by TommyDee on Jul 30, 2013 17:57:03 GMT -5
Mike, I don't blame you for disliking the Dolans. I wouldn't say they are good owners. But you do realize when they first blew it up they had to because of where the game was headed right? Or that it became impossible to sign guys like Sabathia or Lee.
But again what does any of that have to do with this team? You don't support a contending team because of the owner in this city yet you do support another that has had horrendous ownership & been horrible.
Do you understand how that equates to this city just loving football more?
Not that theres anything wrong with that.
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Josh
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Post by Josh on Jul 30, 2013 18:17:37 GMT -5
I see several factors that add up to the poor attendance. First being this is a Browns town first and then a Indians/Cavs town second depending on who's winning. I see a big reason for the poor attendance for during the week is more and more people live further away from downtown. I live in Akron myself and find it almost impossible for me to get to a Tribe game for a 7:05 first pitch and if the game last upwards of 4 hours you're not leaving the stadium until 11 and dealing with traffic and the 50 minute drive home I won't be getting to bed until 12:30 I just can't do that and be up at 5:30 for work. I know a lot of people are the same. If the game was faster it would get more people during the week i'm sure.
I love baseball i could watch it all day but sadly a lot of the younger crowd doesn't and that also hurts because it's not "cool" to go to a ball game. Attendance is down across the league this year and see that trend continuing for the near future until the league can get Selig out and start improving the fan experience across the league. We all now ESPN doesn't help either as they shove Tebow and Manziel down your throats all day and hardly a mention of anything baseball related outside of New York and Boston. 92.3 The Fan seems to do an ok job giving the tribe air time during the day but 850 is just horrible at it. Hammer did spend a whole show today talking about the Tribe but 98% was about attendance and ticket prices no actual talk about the team itself.
Ultimately a consistent winning club will help bring people back to the ball yard but the days of the consecutive sell out streak are long gone.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 18:46:01 GMT -5
Tommy, Thanks for reminding me of something. The Browns had been horrible, BUT the Browns had players who were SUPERSTARS in their positions....Phil Dawson, Joe Thomas, Josh Cribbs...In my opinion (& most football fans) the best in the NFL in their respective positions & with the Browns a number of years. Even when a team/management/ownership is horrible, players such as those become the glue that holds it all together. They give fans something to hold on to. Believe me, if the Tribe had a pitcher & 2 position players at the level of the aforementioned 3 Browns, the fans would be back. I honestly believe that. Hell, the Browns don't sell out, nor will they until they WIN, but they do pack in 90 percent or so of capacity due to putting some very high quality players out there, and the youth that commits to the future. There is limited (or little)future hope when the key players are all past their prime. This city doesn't love football more, it's just starved for a winning tradition. The Browns & Cavs youthful talent better provide that hope for the future than the Indians.
Ol' "Give Francona good YOUNG players & keep them here" Dad
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TommyDee
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Post by TommyDee on Jul 30, 2013 19:18:35 GMT -5
Dawson & Cribbs are the superstars you were hanging onto??? Kipnis & Masterson are just as much superstars as those two.
This isn't a Browns town? Come on Mike.
George - good thoughts but most of the attendance down is either Miami or teams having down years. I like how you didn't mention Dolan or PR though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 21:16:35 GMT -5
Dawson & Cribbs are the superstars you were hanging onto??? Kipnis & Masterson are just as much superstars as those two. This isn't a Browns town? Come on Mike. George - good thoughts but most of the attendance down is either Miami or teams having down years. I like how you didn't mention Dolan or PR though. Tommy, I wrote "Superstars in their positions" & "best in the NFL in their respective positions", which I feel is true. They are/were also Fan favorites. I like both Kipnis & Masterson but they aren't top notch performers in their respective positions however, I feel they both COULD be if they had better talent around them (ie bonafide power hitter/dominant pitcher). I'll give you that this IS more of a football than baseball area, but baseball would do well here if done right. Who is the last Tribe top performer we had here that we KEPT here through their prime? How long will it be before Kipnis & Masterson are gone? Personally, I'll be surprised (& yes, pleased) if they are here past 2015. That's the MO...watch them play & improve, then say "bye-bye". People aren't going to go to games & watch their favorites knowing they'll probably be gone as soon as they hit their peak. Let's face it, this is NOT a MLB team being managed for success & future success. Ol' "Sorry, but this team is going nowhere as long as Dolan owns it" Dad
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Sigflanagan6
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Post by Sigflanagan6 on Jul 30, 2013 23:30:59 GMT -5
Tommy in the 90's you wanted to see Thome, Manny, Belle hit. You wanted to see Omar and Kenny wow you with their glove. This team doesn't have a guy like that. Kipnis could be that guy, but even then we market "we are all Kipnisses".
You are in sales, you should get this. The Indians are selling to the diehard baseball fans but aren't doing anything to create new customers. They just aren't. Strike a radio deal with one of the two sportstalk stations forcing them to cover you more. Market around Kipnis, Swish and Bourn, they're your core for the next 4 years. Create the interest.
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Post by TommyDee on Jul 31, 2013 7:23:10 GMT -5
Dawson & Cribbs are the superstars you were hanging onto??? Kipnis & Masterson are just as much superstars as those two. This isn't a Browns town? Come on Mike. George - good thoughts but most of the attendance down is either Miami or teams having down years. I like how you didn't mention Dolan or PR though. Tommy, I wrote "Superstars in their positions" & "best in the NFL in their respective positions", which I feel is true. They are/were also Fan favorites. I like both Kipnis & Masterson but they aren't top notch performers in their respective positions however, I feel they both COULD be if they had better talent around them (ie bonafide power hitter/dominant pitcher). I'll give you that this IS more of a football than baseball area, but baseball would do well here if done right. Who is the last Tribe top performer we had here that we KEPT here through their prime? How long will it be before Kipnis & Masterson are gone? Personally, I'll be surprised (& yes, pleased) if they are here past 2015. That's the MO...watch them play & improve, then say "bye-bye". People aren't going to go to games & watch their favorites knowing they'll probably be gone as soon as they hit their peak. Let's face it, this is NOT a MLB team being managed for success & future success. Ol' "Sorry, but this team is going nowhere as long as Dolan owns it" Dad Mike, the problem you describe is not an owner issue, it's a baseball issue. In the Cleveland market, which continues to get smaller, the Indians have no choice but to let big time free agents walk. Sig, what do you suggest they do? Go sign the biggest names in the sport? You know that's not possible. And you yourself are now going back to what I described - fans holding onto the 90's which will never happen again.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2013 8:40:33 GMT -5
I don't trust the owner therefore I don't trust the team.
We'll go to the Mets game the Saturday night before the home opener. That's it.
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G&T
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Post by G&T on Jul 31, 2013 9:39:55 GMT -5
Tommy, I wrote "Superstars in their positions" & "best in the NFL in their respective positions", which I feel is true. They are/were also Fan favorites. I like both Kipnis & Masterson but they aren't top notch performers in their respective positions however, I feel they both COULD be if they had better talent around them (ie bonafide power hitter/dominant pitcher). I'll give you that this IS more of a football than baseball area, but baseball would do well here if done right. Who is the last Tribe top performer we had here that we KEPT here through their prime? How long will it be before Kipnis & Masterson are gone? Personally, I'll be surprised (& yes, pleased) if they are here past 2015. That's the MO...watch them play & improve, then say "bye-bye". People aren't going to go to games & watch their favorites knowing they'll probably be gone as soon as they hit their peak. Let's face it, this is NOT a MLB team being managed for success & future success. Ol' "Sorry, but this team is going nowhere as long as Dolan owns it" Dad Mike, the problem you describe is not an owner issue, it's a baseball issue. In the Cleveland market, which continues to get smaller, the Indians have no choice but to let big time free agents walk. Sig, what do you suggest they do? Go sign the biggest names in the sport? You know that's not possible. And you yourself are now going back to what I described - fans holding onto the 90's which will never happen again. Indians = Brewers
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Sigflanagan6
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Post by Sigflanagan6 on Jul 31, 2013 10:11:04 GMT -5
I'm not holding onto the 90's. How many of those players I named did we sign as FA's. They haven't developed talent. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you Tommy. I'm saying I see what the casual fans see.
Fair or not, right or wrong, Dolan has turned off a lot of fans. Lets talk about their airline industry method of pricing tickets. Single game tickets range in price depending on day and opponent, with the cheapest ticket being what it was normally priced a few seasons ago. They're the only one of the 3 teams in Cleveland that does this. And what is Progressive Field known for? You still have not answered my question, why is the average fan compelled to go to a game? I'm giving you the reasons right or wrong they aren't. You're giving me Dolans line of why they should without understanding we are talking about common fans and preconceived notions.
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Sigflanagan6
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Post by Sigflanagan6 on Jul 31, 2013 10:15:21 GMT -5
Mike, the problem you describe is not an owner issue, it's a baseball issue. In the Cleveland market, which continues to get smaller, the Indians have no choice but to let big time free agents walk. Sig, what do you suggest they do? Go sign the biggest names in the sport? You know that's not possible. And you yourself are now going back to what I described - fans holding onto the 90's which will never happen again. Indians = Brewers Milwaukee averages eleven thousand more fans a game. Has a similar economy, has lost just as many big time players, and has as many playoff trips in the same amount of time. It's also Packers country, and they just had their star suspended for PED's. So how are the getting fans. Using Tommy's logic they should be even with us.
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Post by TommyDee on Jul 31, 2013 10:25:13 GMT -5
You still have not answered my question, why is the average fan compelled to go to a game?
To watch a contending, fun baseball team and on the occasion see fireworks or get a promotional item would be my answer but I don't think it defines Cleveland.
As my original argument said their current attendance is the norm. Less than 17,000 last night. NOT a baseball town.
What would you do differently if I gave you the power?
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Post by TommyDee on Jul 31, 2013 10:30:27 GMT -5
Milwaukee's population is about 200,000 more than Cleveland's Sig.
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Post by G&T on Jul 31, 2013 10:41:31 GMT -5
Milwaukee averages eleven thousand more fans a game. Has a similar economy, has lost just as many big time players, and has as many playoff trips in the same amount of time. It's also Packers country, and they just had their star suspended for PED's. So how are the getting fans. Using Tommy's logic they should be even with us. They named the stadium after beer, Wisconsin people like to party, it really is that simple. Miller Park is an awesome venue to look at and to attend. Milwaukee is Festival City. It's poor and segregated like no where else in the USA, but everyone has one thing in common, alcohol. And you can get tix on the cheap.
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